Insurance for Short Term Rentals: What hosts need to know with Safely CEO Andrew Bate the easy way to increase bookings

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This week’s topic is a crucial one – Insurance! This espisode is anything but boring. There is so much you can learn and opportunities you will find.

We talk about what can you do to reduce the risk of wild parties or damage to your property. We talk about steps you should take before hosting your guests and steps you can take to aid in getting your guests to behave responsibly.

We are joined by Andrew Bate, the co-founder and CEO of, the leading insurtech and guest screening solution for the vacation and short-term rental market. Since its launch in 2015 over $50 billion of homeowner liability has been covered. Before founding, Andrew served as a founding advisor to and TravelPerk, and co-founded HotelUpgrade to help hoteliers identify and attract high margin business travel through guest perks and upgrades.

In 2012, Andrew was named among the 35 Young Travel Leaders by Phocuswright, and won the General Catalyst Innovation Award and runner-up for Best Startup Travel Innovation of the Year at the 2013 Phocuswright Conference. He became a Young Leader Fellow with the National Committee on U.S. – China Relations in 2014.

Liability insurance is one of those things that can get overlooked, but having the correct insurance policy in place for your accommodation is a critical aspect of property management, protecting your home from damage, and limiting exposure to guest liability. 

Insurance liability can sound boring, tedious and costly but it is a life saver! Time spent with today’s guest is time well spent indeed!

Listen to the episode here

Watch the episode here


Show Notes

Okay everybody, welcome back to the accommodation show, I am super pumped this week to be joined by the wonderful Andrew Bate, who’s from Safely. Welcome to the show. 


Andrew: Thank you. 


Bart: I’m so excited to have you on. You guys got in touch with me a little while ago and you said hey we’re doing some awesome work in the glamorous insurance space, we would love to come on and have a bit of a chat about what we do. Obviously, insurance is a topic that is incredibly important, but maybe not the most exciting. So, in this episode we will begin exciting by talking about some of the reasons why you can leverage insurance products, how could help you and get you to grow but before we get going, Andrew, I would love you to introduce yourself. Let everybody know a little bit about your story and your successes in this industry.


Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Well, you actually started It actually was to help a specific homeowner who had a second home in Wilmington, North Carolina. He went once a year, and the house sat empty the other 50 something weeks of the year. And to me, that was the biggest waste I’d ever seen. How can someone so smart to have gotten their first home than a second home and then leave it empty? How could that happen? And so I started studying and interviewing hundreds and hundreds of homeowners asking, how could you have this second home that’s sitting empty, like what do you do with it when you’re not there with your family. 


And I learned a couple of things, I learned first that these homeowners were letting strangers stay, they were letting people from work stay, from church, they were donating a week to their kid’s private schools silent auction. So they were letting strangers stay but they were strangers they trusted somehow, and that there’s a big difference between a stranger you trust, and an Internet stranger, and that was the difference. 


And so what, what we did is, with that information started company, we started a booking site called Because we thought at the time, this was the key to getting this whole industry working and this was by the way in 2007, three months before Airbnb even launched. This is a very, very new industry. 


And at the time we thought if we could help you identify the people you trust and by the way, you might trust people in a different way than I trust people, or we might trust people differently in our primary home versus an investment home versus a second home. Then all of a sudden this market can be efficient, and people can monetize this asset that they, that they bought because right now, most are leaving their home completely empty not monetizing at all. And that was frustrating to me.


Bart: Yeah, right. I love the trusted guest thing and that’s something that keeps coming up actually, my community says it all the time, is his new founders setting up the best company that’s gonna get all the guests and vet them, and then everyone’s will go to the database and update the database with the bad guests. I, personally, being for product, and from a technology point of view, I can just see so many issues with it. One, you can’t get the data into the database two, is that data going to be accurate, because then you’re blacklisting people that potentially might not need to be blacklisted and then thirdly if somebody is actually intentionally going to go in and cause damage and do all these things that we’re we worry about, chances are that we have to circumvent, any kind of protections you put into place by using a fake ID, or whatever, that kind of stuff so it’s an interesting one, so obviously that particular part I can imagine that it didn’t take off as you mentioned so then what happened next. So we went straight into safely How did it, how did that work?


Andrew: Yeah, a couple of things happened, and where we really struggling with getting this supply. So, we were working with, pretty exclusive groups, we were working with MIT alongside Emory University alarms, McKinsey the consulting from their alarms and helping them rent to one another so we were within some closed groups where people already trusted each other, but where we struggled is. We couldn’t get the homeowners to actually go to that second home. Clean up the owner’s closet, get the seats, do those five things they have to do before they could list the home, so conceptually they said yes, I absolutely want to do this. But then when it came time to them actually doing it, they didn’t and if you look at Airbnb at the same time they were focused on Manhattan, where everyone lives paycheck to paycheck, and they were focused on second rooms in a house, which is pretty easy to get ready to book. If you find out at noon that a guest is coming at 6 pm, you can get that second bedroom in your house ready, whereas you can’t get the home that’s five hours away all ready for a guest to come and so we had a supply problem. 


I had a really good conversation with one of the co-founders of VRBO now, and Carl shepherd he said to us, like, why are you building another marketplace. Just try to make every reservation a little bit safer and infuse your level of trust and safety into every reservation, And that’s the role you should be serving in this human industry in this community. And so in 2013 end of 2013, we switch that business model from being a marketplace to just trying to make every single reservation a little bit safer just like a credit score does in the United States, how can we make that homeowner more comfortable with that reservation, and so we switched to exactly as you were mentioning part we switched to identity verification to reduce the fraud, criminal screening. 


We keep a database of bad gases, and so we answered the homeowner’s question of who’s staying in my house, and then we built an insurance policy that would cover all the liability that a guest might have, a homeowner might have, a property manager might have, everything from $0 up to a million, we put that together. It took two years to build that insurance policy because there was no data at the time and this was a small industry. So finally in mid-2015, early 2016, we started to integrate with the property management systems and get going with the business model we know today at


Bart: Yeah, wow, okay so that’s interesting so one of the things that I didn’t realize, but it kind of made sense now is that you would try to tackle that. The guest screening process as well. First of all, and he said, Alright we’ve got that part so that we can know what’s going on and what the level of risk is per booking. Would you be able to see on an aggregate value, and then you’re like, Hold on. Okay, we can build the insurance product because we got a rough idea as to what the level of exposure and risk is and then what our margins are in terms of one of insuring and then the other one is offering. Having a profit within the company so it’s very interesting that you’ve kind of tackled it in that way. And that probably makes it also the case that you guys can take on. If you’re screening all your guests, that’s kind of like a condition of entry that you can do a lot more within the industry so where insurance is getting super expensive, across the board because there isn’t the screening, you’ve got the screen and therefore you should be able to get better margins of profitability for everybody across the board, am I hitting this on the head?


Andrew: You’re 100% correct, and we just see this screening or this data is completely related to insurance. It’s not one or the other, with good data, you can have good insurance but with no data, you have really bad insurance or expensive insurance or insurance with all these exclusions that you really need. And so, So if you get both of them right. Or at least, if they complement and support one another, then, then you have a more holistic layer of protection.


Bart: I’m gonna jump into practical stuff because I think that that’s very very interesting and these questions are not prepared so it will take you a second and that’s okay, but maybe it’ll be a bit more challenging. So there’s a few things that I really liked some honesty on. One is the instance of parties and Airbnb is being destroyed that sort of thing now. My opinion is that the issue. Yes, it’s there, but it’s not huge like there’s not like if you look at the number of bookings that happen, number of days that happen, there’s not that many places that get destroyed, the issue that a company like Airbnb would have are not the actual damage itself, it’s the serving the damage, so going through having the staff having all that that whole infrastructure that’s there to do all the damage thing, am I right in saying that there’s no correlation like with time where there are these massive parties and damages are increasing?


Andrew: We’re seeing a slight increase in claims. Due to parties and due to like real damage, like real negligence, during a state, but it’s a slight increase, in general, we see less than 1% of all reservations are like having an insurance claim that is due to some negligence exactly as you’re describing a party, someone’s sneaking a dog into a, no pets home, and in so it doesn’t happen a lot. When it does a party typically costs $10,000 up to $25,000, in terms of replacing the contents, you get in the new couch, and then yes when it is complete destruction like that not complete home destruction by that, like, The house is trashed. It is a good mix of labor and getting things cleaned and new furniture delivered versus just the destruction of the stuff, but again we’re seeing that massive destruction that’s less than a quarter of a percent of the time, it’s just not happening a tonne.


That said, there are some homes and there are some neighborhoods and there are some weeks and weekends and holidays that really really attract us, Airbnb and a lot of markets they’re, they’re shutting down Halloween like one or two nights, days over Halloween and it’s based on data like things are happening there. But if you look holistically across our entire industry. It is pretty safe, but you also want to have the right insurance in place because those catastrophic things happen, and then of course the mistakes happen, or the catastrophes happen.


Bart: So that’s, I’m going to keep going on this because I’m so so curious because these are things that I don’t know if everybody knows or doesn’t know and this is where it really gets super valuable because we talk about different niches all the time that we can appeal to in terms of the actual having a property and working into different markets and you said well, having Halloween parties might be a bit riskier. You might have some ideas around, around this risk profile, there’s some places that really lend themselves to, for example maybe for movie shoots and that stuff and so those premium properties but there’s also a lot that would lend themselves to being really great party homes, that are fantastic. In terms of moving into that niche. Do you, do you have any thoughts like if someone says, oh my god I can get these 10 properties and I can be the party, the party King, all my properties are party properties, and obviously you can charge a lot of money for it can it work or not really?


Andrew: I don’t like thinking like this, I don’t want it to work, but Bart you’re right, people go on vacations for a lot of reasons. People do have fun. People do party and that’s okay. What I would like to do is if you are that party house, and it’s like yeah, bachelor parties and parties, this is where you come in this setup for that.


You let’s invest in IKEA furniture or something a little bit more affordable because those contents will be damaged but this still needs to be nice. You’re going to want to have more beds, and, and, like the ratio of beds in two bedrooms, is going to be really really high compared to more of a family location that’s one of the towels that we look forward to identifying high-risk houses by that ratio of this sleeps up to 40 people, but it only has four bedrooms, and it’s like, whoa. People are being stacked somewhere, and that’s a tell that you’re ready to bring all these people in, but you can get a much higher ADR, it’s just like, if you’re going to be friendly to something that’s not traditional, like a party or pets, you can have a higher average daily rate, and you can monetize it people are looking for this like there’s a subset of people looking for it. 


Now, how do you mitigate that damage, and put some of the responsibility to the guest, and that would be like putting. I’m mostly against a damage deposit but in this case, I’d like a damage deposit. I’d like a lot more scrutiny about who’s there, so each person, each guest feels responsible for the outcome. So that there’s a little bit of social pressure to make sure that everything gets cleaned up at the end, and you don’t get too crazy. I use one example because we’ve paid for this. 


The bar shut down,  in the Lake Tahoe area, bar shut down at one o’clock or so, the guest wanted to bring the whole bar back to the home, which you clearly at 1 am in all the people who are motivated to go back to this home and continue having a bar for five, six more hours, that actually ended up being really expensive in terms of the damage it did end up well. So how do we motivate that person who’s a good person who’s having fun on his vacation, how do we encourage him to stay at the bar, or go to someone else’s house instead of into your house, and that’s part of what we’re trying to do, how do you get that guest to feel a little bit more responsible, and maybe they pay the first $1,000 of damage, so then they think twice, even if it is after 8 or 12 or 14 drinks.


Bart: Yeah, just such it’s such a great space I’m gonna keep on going because I really haven’t even had the chance to talk to someone that’s actually looking at this on more of an aggregate value in the existing risk right and, and these business strategies that loads of coaches and loads of people that come up with all these ideas and a lot of the time I’ll be shaking my head guy off. That’s just terrible you’re just, you’re just asking for a lot of trouble but that’s also the negativity in me right maybe there’s an opportunity there and you can find a way to build it and make it work. So, what about the editor if you’ve played around with this idea yep the I feel think they call for 420 houses or marijuana houses in the obviously the states that are legal and that thing. It’s almost a little bit like pet friendly but not pet friendly, have you guys, do you guys insure for 420 houses and. And also, do has done any work on that at this stage.


Andrew: Yeah, I don’t have any data on how, how the outcomes that those homes are different from others, there are only a handful of property managers that are really like publicizing that this is a friendly home for that. That said, I’ll take someone who’s smoking. They’re pretty calm, they’re causing much less destruction than people who are using other drugs, who are drinking, or having other types of parties like this is my type of people, they’ll have a pizza, they’ll chill out, and there might be a spill or something here they are, but really these end up in my very limited experience without big data set here. This is an okay behaviour in one of our homes.


Bart: Again, so I’m gonna move into something which is quite interesting. So obviously there’s your product which is on the market and I hope that anyone that’s listening, you can understand that Safely will be there to be your kind of your anchor to help you figure out whether your guests are the ones that you want in your home when you’re not using a platform like Airbnb and we can go back to that in a second if you want but we don’t have to. I think a lot of people understand the benefits and disadvantages of using Airbnb, I don’t want it to become about that. What I’m really interested in is because you’re not in Australia, you’re not all over the world, yet. Once you can obviously go are going go and use Andrews product, but let’s say I don’t have the opportunities for your product at this particular moment. 


Is there any kind of bridge that we can have, are there any steps that you think every property manager should have to mitigate that risk and a few things they can do without having to share all of your trade secrets, but also to add a bit of value out there to people that genuinely have got their properties and asked if I’ve got to think about this, what do I do next. I get asked this question quite a lot and it’s like well, always take an ID, right before people come, what you’ve got, you have to balance out the, what will the guest tolerance be in terms of providing information as well right because you can’t get in signing contracts and then all of a sudden you can do damage deposits and all this stuff and make it a too complicated and horrible experience for the guests. Do you have any tips for us?


Andrew: Yeah. What we’ve found is there’s a profile of guests, where 70% of the bad outcomes are caused by a profile that represents about 14% of guests. Think of it like the 8020 rule, there are some guests who like if you’ve done 100 reservations,  there’s a type of guests is, is going to be problematic, their profile might be not as complete, it might ask some weird questions, pre-booking or post-booking and your radar goes up. And that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re bad or anything like that but you’re getting a feeling. 


And what we try to do as a whole company is help people focus on that 5%,10% of guests who are like, concerning, and who are showing flags that, like they have some weird questions, I mean for example we had one, they’re asking all these questions about what’s the view like from the jacuzzi and yes they were doing some, some triple X film production there, but they’re asking these weird questions and the same thing happens with your guests, you’re getting a feeling for that. And so what I like to do and what we like to do as a company is adding friction for those high-risk guests. 

We don’t want to turn down revenue. We don’t want to say no you can’t stay here, especially low season, there’s room for everyone, but we do want to put more time into those high-risk guests, maybe that’s when you come and visit them meet them at the front door, maybe that’s when you deliver cookies every night, or change the filter in the air conditioner in the heater and just say, Oh, I just have to do this one thing quickly, they know you’re watching the other thing that we like to do is like be upfront and say, Hey, there’s a police officer who lives next door, he seems like really sensitive to noise, and oh and I live, four doors down, so if you need anything, I’ll be there to help you, but that’s the thing though that you don’t have an open licence to party. And so just a couple of those things just saying look, if what happens when you do party when you do break these rules. 


Like, there are consequences. We’ve had them before. Of course, I’m not saying that would be a problem with you but if you want to cancel, no problems. I’d be happy to help you with this isn’t the right home and we’ve seen a lot of success like dropping those little hands, that that would make this not the right house for some doing something really bad whereas if you’re there with your grandparents like who cares that there’s a police officer next door. That’s actually good, maybe, you get more protection or the things are a little safer. And so it really is. You add those draconian measures that you mentioned, it really is about just dropping a couple of hints, putting extra effort when you’re worried.


Bart: It’s awesome. I love the idea of creating more friction, and I want to just focus on that for a second because I guess there’s so many different ways that you can interpret that, asking for ID is a friction point asking for a credit card for a deposit is a friction point, if you got them to sign a contract, that’d be a huge friction point for a lot of people, especially if it’s way, way ahead of time. And yet, you’d have to be hassling them to do it. And obviously, you’ve got the converse of that friction being more the policing of it. Hey, we’ve got cameras in the property and that stuff will come back the cameras in a second. But are there any other friction points that you could, you can think of all that you guys use that, like are these ones really helped navigate the people that you don’t want there to not book on a stay?


Andrew: Yeah, the ones who are there, if a property manager wants us to run a background check, the guest has to go through a few extra steps, and that is friction but this friction. So, the property manager is balancing, do we add friction for the guest, because our homeowners are happier. So we can recruit our homeowners more we can retain our homeowners more, we can have a better business operationally. And is that friction worth it or not, that’s the question, and different types of businesses different types of homes are going to kind of mandate different types of friction and levels of friction that are acceptable. 


Some of that friction though, you’ve got to be really careful so getting an ID will, you’re going to get the main guest ID, but often they don’t even know at the time of booking who else is going to come to sit so if you’re going to get IDs. And this is really a big piece of what you’re doing, it needs to be closer to arrival when you actually know who’s going to be there and then there needs to be some enforcement that okay the guests coming in. I also need to have seen their ideas or feel comfortable that you at least have enough where enough people have a shared responsibility to do a good job in this rental, the credit card thing, be careful with that because the guest can always initiate a chargeback and in credit cards have decided that they are not here to be an insurance instrument for damage or a random amount that wasn’t pre predetermined, and the guests will win the chargeback most of the time, and unfortunately if the guest gets mad.


Bart: When you do hold on to the credit card is that what you’re talking about?


Andrew: Yeah, it could be a hold, it could be a whole nother whole other charge. But then you say, Oh, Mark, you’re in my house, and he broke the last $20, we’re gonna, we’re gonna charge you for it. Most of the time that guest is going to win a chargeback if he or she does do a chargeback they’ll win because the credit card companies have said, we’re only going to, allow a charge for a pre-determined amount. So if the contract said, Okay, we’re going to charge you $220 When you break a lamp, and then the lamp is broken, that becomes a lot more okay than just saying, We’re gonna hold $500 and it’s a slush fund for whatever we want to charge you later on, based on your negligence, that’s fine, but they will often go through a lot of hassle and then lose that chargeback because the credit cards are just built for consumers, not for business people and your business person right now when you’re running that rental. 


Bart: We’re getting towards the end of the episode already and I think that there are just so many different angles that we can unpack, which is super, super interesting. I was gonna go, maybe we can briefly, briefly talk about cameras on the property because that’s something that you’ll know a lot about and something that we get asked about all the time. But I’m kind of giving you a heads up as well that our time is running out, just in case there’s some angles that you want to come back and cover off and things that you think are important in terms of this, the messaging of this particular episode but a going to cameras with my feeling is that, yeah cameras can be there to alleviate. I don’t want to talk about the installation of where you install them and stuff that’s all everybody’s own laws and stuff like that we’re not doing that. But what I’m trying to get at is if you do have cameras. My feeling is that people that want to party will cover them anyway. And then so those are the like the real high-risk ones and that’s when you’ve got a flag or alarm bell that says hey you have to do something, but then it might just help soften the damage of some of the other ones and some of the other potential problems, any, do you guys put cameras within your risk profile does it de-risk risk properties or what is your view on that?


Andrew: Yeah, we see a lot of what you see but at the same time, the cameras are good because yes, some are covering them some are unplugging them some are doing, weird things to them. And that’s already its own signal, that you don’t need to see people sneaking in and out if it’s covered. And it was covered intentionally or the router was unplugged or the noise-aware device in a device was unplugged like there’s something’s happening. So Jesse just them doing something bad or covering it, or unplugging it is enough to know that you should be paying attention. I think the hardest part though is, Will, something’s happening now what, what do you do, you go there and confront them. I mean, because there’s a cost to that there’s, there’s a safety cost to yourself, but there’s also a retribution cost whether you do something if you don’t kick them out is really hard to kick them out into in the morning. You don’t kick them out, then they’re going to do other stuff to your house. Are they leaving you a bad review and the answer is yes they will leave your horrible review, and now that has a cost to you? And so I think where homeowners and property managers can do a better job of figuring out already knowing exactly what happens when they’re getting these signals, noise aware device gets too high. Lots of people are parking on the lawn, to go into the house. 


And you got to play park like you have to trust that person nearby to kind of scout it out, and you take those next couple of steps. You maybe even have talked to the police department ahead of time so you’re not hiding from them like some, in some jurisdictions, people are worried about renting because it’s violating some laws, at least know that in trying to try to be more friendly, or trying to get the police to be on your side, which of course is so hard to do and it’s so many different communities and neighborhoods, but I think most people don’t have a plan and this always happens at like two in the morning, three in the morning, when you’re least prepared to think straight, or even have the resources lined up. The good news is less than 1% of the time are we even seeing bad stays but yes, there are bad stays that are bad. 


Bart: Cool. So there’s one last thing that might be interesting to cover. And if we can do it quickly. I think it’ll be worthwhile. There’s two, I think that the only OTA out there that’s providing some post covers Airbnb at the moment, in terms of some amazing booking there are damage waivers and some policies there. I don’t believe in any of the OTAs are doing it so if you’re getting any booking from any other OTA or direct booking you must have more than just home insurance, right, that’s the math, you need to have something in place. Unless you just, you don’t care about that risk. Do you have any comments on those two parts and anything that I’m missing that I don’t know or the audience could benefit from?


Andrew: Yeah, probably two things one is VRBO  does have a host liability policy as well and it does cover some good things that cover some of the liability that that host might incur if the guest gets hurt and two, assets, that’s one of the most important things because we can focus on bad parties. Those are a lot more affordable than a bodily injury claim where someone falls through balconies slips on the stairs or drunks in a swimming pool, those are the important ones. And that is an area where the booking sites, sometimes have really stepped up and done a good job and sometimes you’ve just done a horrible job and haven’t taken care of legitimate claims. To me, there are two things that really mattered. Number one is you need an insurance policy for you, like, a policy that VRBO has that Airbnb has anyone else has, is for their company in protects their company. Now, by proxy might protect you too, but that policy is written for the company, and, and it has profit and loss goals, things like that. 


A real insurance policy that you get from a real broker or real agent is going to protect you and often enough you, the homeowner, this is one of your big assets that you’re hoping is part of your retirement package, or maybe you live in this home later on. And so it really is, get a policy for yourself, don’t count on someone else’s business policy to help you and Bart, as you said, we’re moving into an era where your reservations are not coming from a single source, of course, everyone wants direct bookings, that’s fine, but you’re, we’re going to see more and more booking sites, and you’re going to want reservations from each one of that they’re going to have different types of customers different types of guests, and, and you’re going to want to be there the technology to allow you to distribute is going to be there too. So really your trust and safety solution needs to be where your master calendar is and that is in your business, you can’t count on someone else to provide it. I mean if you look at a random example like if we were to sell insurance to cuantas you in there they’re listed on hundreds and hundreds of sites we wouldn’t sell insurance to cuantas through Expedia, we got to cuantas and say hey all your flights like we want to make sure we’re insuring that book of business. Same thing here, your reservations are coming from all over the place from your CRM direct bookings Airbnb, TripAdvisor everywhere, and you need that solution, you can’t count on any one of the booking sites for that solution. 


Bart: Fascinating, and what I enjoyed about this episode is, we went down some paths I didn’t expect to wear. Insurance is overlying. I guess the solution to some of this problem but there’s also a way we’re trying to quantify some of the problems that are there and find opportunities, as well as what I really like to do, and it’s all about strength in people’s businesses and makes it easier for them. Overall, so if you are listening, make sure that you’ve got the right insurance for you. Is that is the overall answer, Andrew, thank you so much for coming on to the show, I very much appreciate it. You’ve done something for the community, is there anything that we can do to support you.


Andrew: Yeah, well, thank you very much for the opportunity. No one likes to talk about insurance, I just love talking about it anytime. Anytime someone will listen so thank you for that if you have concerns like what worries you about running your small business, about allowing guests in. And, I talked about some of the concerns but I’d love to learn more about what was keeping you from recruiting a homeowner was keeping you from listening on a certain channel. What are you worried about because we’re in the whole business of trying to mitigate that risk. So if you’re worried about something. We want to build the right product you leverage our data, leverage our insurance leverage anything else our relationships with the booking sites with the property management systems, whatever it is, we want to be able to help make this a really safe community, a safe industry, but also one that doesn’t have friction, it’s just as easy as booking a hotel or an airline is friction-free for all the times when it should be friction-free and a little bit of friction when there should be friction, but that’s our whole goal so if you can email me and tell me what your biggest problems are. That would be really valuable as we build version three, version four, version five safely calm.


Bart: For now, if anyone wants to connect with Andrew, all of his links and bits and pieces will be in the show notes, so make sure you reach out to him I’m sure that he will respond to an email or even an Instagram message or LinkedIn message or whatever platform you find him on. Andrew, thank you so much for joining us. As usual, if you loved our episode please make sure that you follow like subscribe hit the little bell. It means a lot to us and it means that we can continue bringing guests to the show. Once again, thanks so much. We’ll catch you around. Have a fantastic day. Thank you. 


Andrew: Thank you


Bart: Thank you so much for listening to the show. You can find us at where you can find all the show notes, links to resources we have talked about in transcripts from the show. I really do appreciate you listening, and if you’d like to support the show, please subscribe, leave a comment, and share it with others.

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